Since I've never run before (ever), I'm never sure if what is happening to me is normal or fixable or what. So any advice would be appreciated. Here goes: I feel great for any of the runs up to 10 miles. Between 10-13 miles I am just okay. Anything over 13 miles I get progressively more miserable with each mile. By the time I finished this weekend (30K) I was doing little more than a shuffle. When I'm shuffling, I'm not breathing hard and my heart isn't beating any faster than it would if I was sitting on the couch, but my leg muscles seem to simply poop out. I have religiously stuck to the schedule; I have run every single weekday minute and every single weekend mile since the very beginning (I am not kidding). I am going to finish this marathon even if I have to shuffle the entire last half, but it would be extremely nice if I could be doing something to increase my chances of shuffling a few less miles. Does anyone have any advice at all because I am getting frustrated with myself. Thank, Jolene

Jolene,
You might try taking a day or two off during your midweek runs. Treat yourself to something fun. A few days rest will make you stronger both mentally and physically. You won't lose any of your fitness either as long as you only do it every month or so. When I first started running 15 years ago I thought I couldn't miss one day as I would lose it all. I was wrong, almost once a month I take 3 to 4 days off in a row but try not to miss my long weekend runs. Rest can really help.
If you are afraid you will lose some of your fitness, try cross training like biking or the pool on your run days.
Just to let you know you are not alone. I have run 9 marathons in the 4 hour range. I still get wiped out after every long training run. But it does get better as you have done more of them. The first time you do more miles it is quite a struggle. You are not alone in your fatigue. You are going to finish the marathon and shuffling is normal for alot of us! I have walked in 7 of my 9 marathons, so it happens to us all. You are not alone.
Remember, they give out the same medal to the 6 hour finisher as they do the 3 hour one!

Are you running with a heart rate monitor? Even if you are running slow and able to keep talking or breathing normally, you could be at a higher rate than where you should be. That would mean you are over-stressing your body, and especially if you haven't missed any runs, it might never get the chance to fully recover (or move beyond recovery to getting stronger). If you are running below your aerobic threshold and have kept up with the runs, I would guess that your body would be trained by now to sustain longer distances at the same heart rate and be feeling better. Coach Eric Lewis has monitors you can borrow, and even if you have one, borrowing one of his and having him review the downloaded performance can be really eye opening. Of course, I don't know if this will be the answer for you, but it has helped me a lot and a lot of people I know. Good luck!

What method are you using to determine your "correct" heart rate? Are you using a monitor?

Aside from the possibility of overtraining, what are you using for fuel?

Doug,

Keep in mind that I have never run before... When I start to slow down it isn't because I'm out of breath or winded, or my heart is pounding or anything. It's just seems like my legs run out of gas until I am reduced to a shuffle. Before I am reduced to shuffling, I think I'm running at a comfortable pace - I guess - but to be honest I really have no idea if a comfortable pace is the correct pace. I have never used a heart rate monitor because it seemed as though they were for "serious" runners. As you can tell from my question and this additional response, I am not a serious runner, just a confused novice runner. As far as cross training or overtraining, I do Pilates with a personal pilates trainer twice each week. Sports drinks and blocks seem to upset my stomach so I just run with water and hammer gels. Thanks for everyone who is trying to help me. Jolene

I am having similar issues. My cardio seems fine -- though I have been convinced that "feeling" fine doesn't mean I am running in the right heart rate zone -- but my legs just k-i-l-l after about 12 miles. The biosoft inserts recommended by Dr. Bryan help a bit -- the knee pain is a little less and legs take longer to get to the point at which I wish I could administer myself an epidural. But still, I am more or less shuffling at best and walking a lot by the end of most of the long runs since the 25K. I do plan to get the heart rate monitor some time -- if I can ever get there early enough! But I wonder how can I possibly go slower than I am already going. Really, it would be tough.

I am really wondering if one can go from couch potato to marathoner in 6 months. I read all the encouraging posts, but I still feel like I am ruining my knee for life and I just don't think my little chicken-leg muscles are strong enough to endure anything over 13 miles, much less 18.8 or 26.2. Granted, I am a pessimist by nature, and hopefully it's just the pessimist in me -- and not common sense -- having these doubts.

My gut at this point is to keep plodding (though I am getting my knee checked out at the Portland Knee Clinic next week) and just go ahead and sign up for the marathon and crawl it if I have to, but -- wow. This has really gotten hard since the 25K.

Sorry to be so down -- it's just where I am right now after 4 really hard long runs.

Jolene,
It sounds as though your legs may need some recovery time. Recovery also means feeding the muscles immediately following a training session. I asked the fueling question to see what you might be putting back “in the tank.” It sounds like your legs are getting tapped out for fuel? Without proper and sustained fueling, the beginning runner is going to start running on empty between 1 hour-to-two hours based on pace. Once the legs start feeling heavy, you compensate with other parts of the body or change your stride. In your case, you called it shuffling. Feeding the muscles at that point is near futile. You won't process the fuel fast enough to get it where it needs to go. Your only choice is to slow way down.

You’ve divulged the fact that you practice Pilates twice a week. I have never taken a Pilates class, but I have heard many comments on how strenuous it can be. Are you doing this on your rest days or run days?

Regarding comfortable pace and correct pace, you hit the nail on the head. A heart rate monitor (HRM) would at least show you what’s going on inside, regardless of what it feels like on the outside. The HRM doesn’t care whether I’m getting enough sleep, properly fueled, over trained or I feel fantastic. The HRM just shows me what my system is doing and how it’s reacting to those different “environmental” factors. If you could take a look at progress based on heart rate function and adaptation, it might reveal some easily remedied issues within your training.

Lastly, I question why you don’t consider yourself a “serious” runner? Anyone who puts in the mileage, time and dedication that you have, towards the goal of completing a marathon, is serious about what they want to accomplish. By all means, serious runners are all around us. They aren’t necessarily out winning marathons, but they are serious enough about their training that enables them to reach the goal of putting that first foot over the starting line.

I have to believe that we’ve all been confused novices at one time or another. Take a step back and look at the overall picture. Is it time to change something? It definitely sounds like your attitude is in the right place.

Keep up the great work!

Doug

Jolene,

I have heart rate monitors available for next weekend's runs. Please email me if you would like to reserve one.

Eric

Let's not forget in this that long runs are hard. Over time they get easier. So you will continue to get better. And we will have a 3-week taper at the end of the program that will give you time to rest up.

As others have noted here, it's probably one of three things.

1. Overtraining/staleness
2. Inadequate nutrition / glycogen shortage on long runs
3. Pace management

Overtraining (which is a specific set of physiological symptoms that take a long time to develop) or "staleness" (which precedes true overtraining but causes sluggishness and a perceived loss of energy) are always a risk to athletes new to marathoning, especially if you're doing the running in combination with other stressful athletic activities. I don't know how intense Pilates are but you may want to cut back on that. You certainly should *not* be doing Pilates on your days off of running. The rest days become ever more important from here on out. A 26-week training schedule is a big challenge to maintain and you can't overdrive your body with other, non-running activities and expect to be getting sufficient recovery time.

I'm concerned about the nutritional aspect. As we go on to do 21 miles, then the full marathon, you need to make certain you are getting enough fuel. So you may want to try Sharkies or those Clif gel cubes as an alternative. Or Clif bars or the like. I'm worried that gels alone won't cut it for 26.2 miles. Also you may want to work at more of a carb-load before the 21 miler to increase the amount of glycogen you are starting with. Eat more complex carbs the 48 hours before the 21 miler and see how that goes.

The other aspect is pace. Using a heart-rate monitor gives you some useful enforcement of your maximum speed limit for marathon distance. It's possible, though, that the resulting pace is too sluggish for your gait. So my feeling is you should try the HRM right away, next weekend if possible, and get a sense for whether you're running in the right range. You might find that a run/walk combination is beneficial for you. While some people are negative on run/walk, last I checked it works great for JR and Lisa, the two Yellow group coachs in Portland.

Jolene,
I feel the same way and it's baffled me a couple of years.
After a couple hours my body is just beat up. I'm not "winded" and it's not from lack of training.

To deal with this I'm currently focusing on:
-More fluids
-Better Preparation
-More carbs
-Running in proper HR zone.
* I'm also trying to do more speed work in hopes that I'll condition my muscles to promote endurance and efficiency.


HYDRATION
I just met with Dr. Yates (triathlete, sports and family medicine) about this. He asked me about my hydration. I told him I drank significant amount of fluids including sports drink and sodium and water.

For my 4hr marathon he asked me how many times I peed. I said I dunno maybe 0 to 1? After a look of disbelief he said "that's a huge issue. You should need to pee every 60-90 minutes if you take in adequate fluids. Even the fast guy might be lucky if they can hold it 2:30 max. Drink more." Be a Whiz and drink 'til you whiz. I can only drink as much as I can carry: A fuel belt = 32oz and 1 hand held bottle 20oz. Refill at stations and fountains on runs. Take a throw-away bottle.

CARBS
This gets tricky but I need more than the sports drinks offer. This is Hammer get or Gu.
The correct amount for you will be based on your size and how fast you go and burn calories.
When you take this drink 8-10 oz of water to dilute it enough to enter your blood stream. Otherwise it sits in your stomach making feel "icky." That is a technical term.

You need to practice the carbs thing on your long runs. Tak enough Gu to choke a horse and drink enough water to dilute it. This will help with your hydration also.

PREPARATION
I'm getting cocky and drinking more alcohol than I should the night before I run. Or I don't get enough rest. Or both. So, I made sure I got enough sleep and hydrated better. I also avoided dairy and other foods that might upset my stomach. Acids, spicy etc.

HR ZONE
I noticed you were asked a dozen times if you have a HR Monitor. That's a decent hint that it could be a helpful tool. However, it needs to be used correctly and you have to put it into perspective. It's just information. I had my aerobic, anaerobic and lactic thresholds tested. I have decent idea of what my HR should be. For the 18miler. I kept it around 165 a comfortable pace and approx. 30 sec. slower per mile. I focused on drinking fluids and I felt much better than I did at Heveltia and I went all out.

CRAMPS and PAIN
Sunday, I started to tighten up with about 1 mile to go. This is like clockwork for my body. I haven't yet combined everything above properly because it takes practice and experimentation.

LESSONS/Opinions in my trial and errors:
Fuel:
PROPEL Fitness Water is more flavored water than sports drink. It's not enough for runs over 60min.
AMINO VITAL: It's a post race beverage to help recovery. It also does not replace the carbs and sodium you lose during a run.
GLEUKOS: Better for hydration during race the others mentioned so far but still a little on the lite side.
GATORADE: Sweeter, a little strong
ENDURANCE Gatorade: More Sodium, "designed" for distances. I've been using this as I experiment with other mixtures.
5 GU packets and 100+oz of fluids may not be enough.

Muscles and professionals:
Not all doctors, Phys. Therapists, chiropractors know everything.
You get a more accurate picture if you get them to pool their information.
Stretching would help me. I have some pretty tight trouble spots that cause problems and make me "shuffle" on the course.
Diagnosis: range from don't run...to run more. Basically, you have to put the puzzle pieces about your body together. OFten there are several factors that cannot be addressed by one magic, instant solution. Heel lift. Hydrate, stretch, speed work, HR Zone, Cadence, Technique, stride....they all come together to form 1 large neurotic runner.


WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS: Do Marathon Shuffle.
I end up cramping every year between mile 18-20. When I can't shake it off. I stretch for a minute. Then, I start walking gingerly and try to increase speed. Imagine a speed walker recovering from a stroke.
It's Not Pretty. You might need to walk 5 minutes, a mile or the rest of the marathon. Don't worry about the fact that you're not running. Be thankful you're still moving and putting one foot in front of the other. Ease into a faster pace as your body allows. By the time you get to the Steel Bridge it will hurt just as much to walk as it does to run. So go ahead and run down the far side of the bridge...along the water front and back through the chute. Smile you're done and they're taking your picture.

Good Post, Tony!

My question is, why are you cramping? I see alot of your information revolves around experimentation with hydration, but save for the comment on sodium, the electrolyte component seems to be missing. Yeah, it could be muscle strength, but this isn't the first year for you. Right?

What are doing for electrolytes?

It's a tough balance, this marathon thing, though I do so enjoy hearing what others are doing.

Thanks,
Doug

Seconds on the excellent post Tony!

One thing I experienced after legs cramping routinely at mile 15+ like clockwork was the successful addition of endurolytes to the regimen of fueling and drinking at regular intervals. This completely eliminated the cramps!!! I am a slow red/purple type of gal, so I'm out there typically for 6+ hours. I usually take 1-2 endurolytes every hour (or every other aid station) depending on how hot it is that day.

Also want to mention that stomach cramping that I experienced was also due to the choice of gel I was using. Went through several different gels out there before finding the one that works for me.
Same goes for the fluids....gleukos doesn't work for me, neither do some other fluids....I found what works for me and take with me to marathons I travel to.

I also echo a huge recommendation to hook up with Coach Eric and borrow a HRM some weekend (or Tuesdays at Duniway). It has been QUITE enlightening to me how much I was overdoing it!! Now that I have been taught just what the "long slow saturday run" should be for me...I don't feel so wiped out after the long run. I also noticed that I took fewer walk breaks of shorter duration using the HRM as compared to the really long walk breaks towards the end of the run before using a HRM.
I completed the 18 point whatever run this past weekend and felt like going out again the next day!! I can tell you THAT never happened before using a HRM!!

Run/walk method......well I can tell you this....I PR'd by 35" at my last marathon in June by doing this!!! I didn't think it would work, and never would have believed it would work until I actually FORCED myself to keep to the plan from the very beginning of the marathon.....It irritated me beyond words to have people passing me at the beginning miles of the marathon, but I ended up passing many of those in the closing miles of the distance. Talk about an emotional boost to see a plan come together successfully

It takes time and practice for it all to come together....regular fueling and hydration intervals, endurolytes, along with correct individual training pace using HRM, and run/walk intervals for the really long distances has been the successful recipe for me.......
Hope it helps you too.....

Happy Trails
Metro Gnome

Excellent point!! We all know we have to drink so many ounces of water per day. Could you imagine what would happen if we tried to drink it in one sitting?

I heard Kendra speak about her Ironman experience a few weeks ago and one of the things she does before a race is marks her water bottle in 2 ounce increments. (I think it was 2 ounces...Kendra, correct me if I mis-quote you here!) She has a series of red lines on her water bottles and then sets her HRM to beep every 20 minutes. She then drinks to the next line. She only takes in liquid calories so she is drinking a combination of carbs and electrolytes every 20 minutes.

I didn't mark my bottles but I did drink consistently on my last training bike/run and I felt great. Granted, I had to pee more than I normally do but now I know that's a good thing.

Good luck in your program! The people that have posted responses (except me ) really know their stuff so take their advise!!

Wow. I feel SO much better after reading these posts. I most definitely need a HRM, more water (I thought I was drinking enough as I drink a lot but I *never* pee on any of the runs), and these enduralytes. Who can tell me more about these and where I can get me summadem? I typically drink gleukos and water on the long runs, and eat maybe 3 to 6 clif gel thangs, depending on the length of the run. If anyone can enlighten me on this product, please do.

Thanks especially to Tony, and to the other detailed and very informative posts that followed. I need all the encouragement I can get, and these helped.

Hammer Nutrtion Endurolytes can be found at the running shops as well as some bike shops!

Train before the pain. Know what mean? They do take some experimentation to get your head around how many and how often. They've saved my bacon a time or two.
Doug

Endurolytes replace a lot of the electrolytes lost in perspiration. My bottle of 120 had a list price of $18 at PRC (before PFit discount.)

I like them because the capsules are small enough to carry conveniently and they have no sugar(s). They do have Sodium (as NaCl), Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, Vitamin B-6, Manganese... and a few other things.

One capsule has 100 mg sodium, and they recommend 1-3 capsules/hour during prolonged exercise in hot weather. You can estimate how much water to take with each by checking the amount of sodium in some sports drink that works well for you.

Some of us believe that trying to solve the "pooped out on long *training* runs" feeling by fueling with sugar snacks can reduce the "training effect" we want for long endurance races. But that's probably a topic for another thread.


Gene

Sorry I spaced out for a while and didn't reply to the Q's.

Re: RDRun Cramping Electrolytes.

Last year I believe I was taking 2 or 3 endurolytes per hour on long runs.
3 before the run and 3 an hour into it. Along with a gel pack and fluids depending on the plan.

Result was no significant change. In fact my 2005marathon time was 11 minutes slower than 2004. Partly, I didn't want to risk collapsing again nor did I want to spill my beer.

I was just online checking out PDX marathon times and figuring out how to run a sub 4hr marathon b/c what I've been doing hasn't worked.

I'm checking out other runner's splits, etc at checkpoints. Most start out ok then drop the pace (crowd things out effect?) keep it going until 1/2 way then you see the slow down.

Most of the drastic pace increases occurred between: 20mile to 35k and especially 35k to Finish

Only 1 person I saw out of 20 got faster from 35k to Finish. Most people added 10-20 seconds to their overall pace in the last 5 miles or so. Let's call that bonking.

The people that had a siginificant bonk also had a sizeable pace reduction early in the marathon: Those that were pretty steady didn't seem to bonk and finished strong.

Tony's splits: Goal: 9:00 pace. Or 9:08 = 3:59:58 Finish
10k = 8:54 pace (:06 faster than goal)
15k = 8:44 pace (means I ran 8:24s or so for 3 miles to drop my pace by 10 sec.)
1/2 = 9:00 pace (any time that I "banked" by going out fast was lost. HR above recovery zone)
20mi = 9:09 pace (Pace slows while I cramped)
35k = 9:11 pace (I tried to rally running last 4 miles 8:00 pace. Stopped after 2mi & grabbed a beer.
Finish = 9:36 pace (walking, jogging stretching, chuggin' along.)

I would've been better off running a 9:08 pace for the 20 miles of the marathon. Chances are once I get there I don't feel like large steamy pile of poo. THis would help keep my HR in zone where I get better "mileage."

For last 2 years I've tried to "Bank" a little time earlier in the marathon so I can take it a little easier during the finish. It's worked in the past but not at the faster pace I run today. It's costing me too much early on.
I'm not strong at the end.

What would happen if I did the run in reverse?
I'd walk jog while drinking a Pabst the first 1 or 2 miles at 13min pace. After my warmup I'd start jogging at 9:30. to bring pace down. Then I'd speed up to 9:00s by 1/2 checkpoint to get my pace down to 9:08. I've been taking it relatively easy to this point but I'm still on target. If my HR doesn't go beyond comfort zone I can maintain this and feel strong enough to kick at the finish for a better time. Hamstrings willing of course.

If you're big and sexy like me then it will be important that you don't let your pace vary too much. Keep it as steady as possible. Not too slow, not too fast. Walking water breaks are short but still included, don't forget to pee twice also. Running a mile 30sec faster before 20mile mark may only cost you valuable glycogen. (especially for me, my goal pace is pretty close to my threshold)

Anyone have any more specific info on this? Like pace variance guidelines?

Tony

When you use minutes/mile as your pace during a marathon, you must manually adjust for all the conditions that are going to effect the finish time.

When you use your heart rate as your intensity guide, your pace is automatically determined by all the conditions that would effect your finish time. This includes the speed training you completed, the amount/quality of endurance training, the amount of tapor, the weather, your sleep the week before, your current fuel level, your current fluid level, the terrain and any other factor that would change your pace.

Your heart rate is a real time measurement of your body's workload. You still have to be in touch with your body and how it feels, a heart rate monitor just gives you an objective measurement!

Eric

Tony--

According to marathon coach / former world-classmarathoner Pete Pfitzinger, for a well-trained marathoner the limiting factor in performance will be his or her lactate threshold pace -- that is, the pace at which lactic acid (lactate) begins to accumulate in the bloodstream. If you exceed this pace significantly, you get a number of nasty effects such as decreasing your body's ability to tap into fat stores as an energy source. This leads to that bonking you've experienced. So if you follow Pfitzinger's logic, you should ideally maintain a constant pace just at or under your lactate threshold pace, and absolutely no higher.

It should be noted, however, that distance runners initially depend on their slow-twitch muscle fibers, but over the course of a marathon an increasing number of fibers will fatigue and cease contributing to running motion. When this happens, fast-twitch muscles fibers are recruited in place of the slow-twitch fibers. Since fast-twitch muscles consume more energy, a runner maintaining the same effort level will slow down.

According to Pfitzinger, this process is normal and should be expected, and could result in the 2nd half of a marathon being run at 2-3% slower than the first half. For a runner at 9-minute pace (4-hour marathoners), that amounts to a slowing of 12-17 seconds per mile by the end of the marathon. In their book "Advanced Marathoning" Pfitzinger and Scott Douglas note that world-class marathoners don't necessarily follow this since competitive racing tactics play a bigger factor their pacing than ideal pacing. But for the rest of us mortals, a 2-3% slow down can be optimal.

This is an argument against "banking time" since ideal pacing is relatively even ... so by going faster than your ideal pace, you will slow down even more later in the race.

Your pace at lactate threshold can be determined via various methods but one that's often most expedient is a stress test administered on a treadmill. Ideally you are getting blood measurements to measure the concentration of lactate in your blood but using respiration rate can provide comparable information in the hands of a skilled professional. Heart rate at this lactate threshold pace can also be used as a guideline. Heart rate is a good measurement though not perfect. In my experience, extreme conditions such as high temperatures or psychological stresses (e.g., race-day jitters) can raise heart rates beyond their actual stress on a the body.

Runners World Magazine had a pretty good article on hydration last month. With the Hyponatremia concerns of late, current research suggests that thirst is the best indicator of hydration need; and recommends that you drink when you feel thirsty! It goes against conventional wisdom, but that's the latest from the "experts". They also have a table that lists the pro's and con's of the different drinks available.

Awesome info.
I'll throw my test results out there so people get a better sense of what we're talking about.

My Lactic Threshold in January was 8:30pace.
7mph on treadmill
HR 182

Treadmill speed, Blood Lactate in mmol, Heart Rate in beats per minute.

5.5mph, 5.1mmol, 152 HR awkward pace between run/walk.
6 mph 3.7mmol, HR 169. (Aerobic Threshold)
6.5mph 3.8mmol, 177HR
7mph 4.1mmol, 182 HR (Lactic Threshold)
7.5mph 5.9mmol, 187 HR
8mph, 10.9mmol, 191 HR
8.5mph, 10.1mmol, 195 HR

Since starting the training I believe I'm lowered my HR at same intensity by as much as 13bpm in some cases. 6mph my HR is in 150s when I'm sticking to program.

Calorie/hr burned during test in Total cal/ Carb cal/Fat cal format
5.5mph 924 766/157 (924 calories per hour= 776 were carb/ 157 were fat cal)
6.0mph 984 787/197
6.5mph 1113 913/200
7.0mph 1179 1025/153
7.5mph 1284 1194/90
8.0mph 1371 1309/62
8.5mph 1440 1418/22

Between 6.0-6.5mph I run very efficiently burning those ever present fat calories. We know this is an efficient pace based on Lactic Threshold info. Kinda like the fastest pace you can run while burning the most fat calories.

Notice as speed increased. I burned more calories but they were not from fat. This produced significantly more lactate. I'm not just burning more calories at 4 to 1 ratio. it goes to nearly 7 to 1, 13 to 1, 21 to 1 and 64 to 1...essentially, Bye bye threshold hello VO2 max.

What Eric Cigan was saying is that if my Threshold is 7mph I should run marathon at roughly 6.5mph -6.75mph (all other factors being equal) so that I don't recruit the other fast twitch muscle fibers until it's necessary.

Last year my pace dropped from 8:58 to roughly 8:24 from mile 6 to mile 9. Running at that pace for 30minutes recruited a lot of fast twitch muscles fibers. Once they're recruited my guess is you can't turn them off if there is no recovery time. (A reason why walk/jog could be more effective for certain people?)
I didn't walk I kept going

It wasn't much of a pace increase but comparing it to test data enough of a jump to go from an ideal zone to zone beyond my threshold causing negative effects.

What I need to make sure is that I stay in the neutral zone, a more ideal pace, and figure out how far out I can be before I make my kick to the finish.

ERIC LEWIS mentions a slew of other factors which are also helpful. The ideal miles/minute pace is a result of the slew of factors mentioned. My HR bpm at same intensity today should be better than Jan. after 4 months off. 182 HR could be in different zone. Keep the info/number as a guideline and point of ref. but listen to my body.

He also mentioned factors that can increase HR.
Since it's my 6th PDX marathon and 3rd attempt to break 4hrs I don't know that I'll have race day jitters. I call it the Eeyore Factor. I'm going to try to take that apathetic, stale, low-key approach to keep my HR down and my fast twitch muscle recruitment at bay. When my distance from finish line is = to my "go to" loop near my house (No Mick, it's not up to the Chart House and back for 12mi.) I'll take off shooting for the 3:59.00. (I can see Russell Crowe now: "On My Command, Release Hell!")

Can some finishing ahead of me get the crowd to chant: MAX-I-MUS, MAX-I-MUS, MAX-I-MUS! Like in Gladiator? Kettle drums and some low-brass inst. would be nice as well.

Tony

Tony:
I've just read all your posts (and the responses) with much interest. This will be my first marathon. Instead of being content with just finishing, the stubborn part of my nature has got me determined to make it in 4 hours (at least make a decent shot of it). Thanks for giving out all the details of your experience and thanks to all who have added to this thread. I was tested at SpeedShot and that resulted in measurements of 158 heart rate for aerobic threshold and 166 for anaerobic threshold. Based on my long runs I can keep my heart rate at 158 or below if I keep my pace average around 9:30 to 9:45. Theoretically, I should still be maximizing my fat-burning capacity at this pace/HR. If I use this as my pace limit then I should have a very comfortable marathon, but I want to go faster! What I'm trying to figure out is when and how often I can let my HR go into the transition zone below 166 where I'm starting to burn less fat and more carbs. On the long runs when I've pushed it more, I seem to be very comfortable by going out for the first half keeping my HR down below 158, then pushing it for the second half. I did the 1/2 marathon like that and finished in 1hr52minutes38seconds (yes, I treated it more like a race, then a slow training run). I felt good, but a little depleted at the end. I recovered well. I've thought of just following the 4hour pace setter on the course, but this person's stategy/HR changes might be different then my own. I did one of the long runs (11mile) as more of a tempo run and averaged 8:21 and my heart rate was mostly in the 158 to 166 zone. I just don't know how long I could keep up such a pace. If I start at 9:30to9:45 for the first 1/2 to 2/3 of the course, will I have the ability to push harder for the remainder? Given what you've described, the opposite is more likely. I might just try to keep as steady a pace for the whole marathon as possible - allowing for adjustments on the elevated parts. I'll make sure I walk through my rehydration/gel needs. I've been a slave to my HRM. I might just pay more attention to what my body is telling me too. Run a little stronger if I'm feeling good or walk a bit if I feel the need for some recovery. As tempting as it sounds I'll try to avoid the beer station (unless all else fails). I like your idea for the finish line chant - I could use that too.
Cheers,
John

Jarthur,

I just got a HRM 1 month ago after a very enlightening session with one of Eric's loaners. My question to you since you've been thru the threshold testing is how off is your aerobic target from a calculated formula (i.e. the standard 220-age, x60-70% or the newer one as recommended in runners world that uses 205-agex50%)? I am using a calculated goal now, but feel like I could work so much harder.

Is is worth spending money on testing now before the marathon? (this running thing is getting more expensive with recent HRM cost, marathon registration, new shoes, etc)

Thanks,
Melissa

John, if you know your pacing well and if you are well trained then by all means even pacing is the optimal way to go. But each day is different and you need to be prepared to make adjustments on marathon day. Listen to the HRM. They can be off for psychological reasons (race day jitters) and various physiological factors can drive up the number, but HRM data is still one of your best measurements. You may *feel* good at mile 8 when you're running through the turnaround but you've overdone it I guarantee you will regret it at mile 20. Even pacing, even pacing. If you have something left at the end then increase pace but chances are you'll be working to hold even.

Just a reminder to everyone that both quality and quantity of sleep is very important during your marathon training program. Everyone is different, but four (4) hours of sleep every night is just not enough to allow your body to recover from all the daily stress plus your additional marathon training stress. If you would like to determine if you body is recovering during the night, taking your resting heart rate every morning is a great method for determining your recovery level.

If you would like more information on resting heart rate, please contact me via email.

Hello Melissa,

I hope the timing of my response isn't way too late for you. Anyhow, I'll do a quick calculation using the formulas you have and compare them to my testing data:

220-36=184x60-70% = 110.4 to 128.8
205-36x50% = 84.5

Yeah, those numbers are way low for me. I don't even start to burn serious fat until a HR of ~120 and that continues until about a HR of 158 according to my testing, then it starts to drop off quickly. I go full anaerobic at around 166. My tested maxHR was about 174, but I've gone up to about 178 on some of my interval training. You can see how much more specific data you can get with testing. Everyone is going to be different. I had a good experience with SpeedShot and I think you would also get a great experience with StressThenRest's testing. Only you can determine if it's worth the price, balanced with your other priorities. I'm glad I did it and I'm even going to do a repeat test before the marathon. I have to admit I've become a bit obsessive, though, and I've spent a good chunk of change with a pricey HRM and the testing (and shoes). Money well spent I say.

Good luck with your training and have fun at the marathon!

John

Eric:
Thanks for your response to my specific issues/goals! I guess a good strategy would be to pick a narrow HR range to maintain the entire marathon if I understand you correctly. I just need to know what that range should be. I know what range to use for my training runs, but what range should I use for my marathon? I know our long runs are supposed to be at 1-2 minutes per mile slower then our predicted marathon pace (and I've probably been exceeding that a bit). I really tried to keep my last run limited to the 150-155 HR range at the maximum (well in the aerobic zone) and felt basically zero fatigue. Can I push it into the transition zone (158-166) between aerobic and anerobic respiration during the marathon and still complete it predictably?
Cheers,
John

John:

Come see me on Saturday morning to discuss this issue further. Please bring your testing results with you.

Eric

Melissa (trymelt) and John (jarthur),



None of the formulas work for everyone, but the best I've seen combines the Miller formula (Miller, et al, 1993, Indiana University) with research from Londerlee and Moeschberger (1982, University of Missouri-Columbia):

Use Miller's MHR = 217 - (.85 * age) to compute MHR
Subtract 3 beats for elite athletes under 30
Add 2 beats for 50 year old elite athletes
Add 4 beats for 55+ year old elite athletes

Use this MHR for running training (subtract 3 for rowing and 5 for bicycle)

As far as training zones, the ones that make the most sense to me are based on the "working heart rate" (WHR), which is the difference between the resting heart rate (RHR) and the MHR. One "zone" categorization is:

Recovery Zone (Energy Efficient, Fat Burning) 60% - 70% into WHR
Aerobic Zone 70% - 80% into WHR
Anaerobic Zone 80% - 90% into WHR

As an example, for John's age (36) and estimated (by me) RHR of 50, we would have
MHR = 217-(.85*36) = 186.4
and the WHR would be 136.4, giving approximately:

Recovery Zone 132-145
Aerobic Zone 145-159
Anaerobic Zone 159-173

It's interesting to note that it's often suggested that one can make a good guess at the AT by taking 85% of MHR. I like using WHR, corresponding to the middle of the Anaerobic Zone above.
For the numbers above (John w estimated RHR) this gives 166.

Doesn't that pretty much correspond to your tested AT, John?

Anyway, Melissa, you might want to try the above formulas and see if they make sense for you, in lieu of getting tested. Of course, testing is the best (if/when one can afford it.)

Just my 2 cents worth,

Gene

I was with you up to your example values. If the training zones are based on a percentage of the WHR, it seems the maximum value of the Anaerobic Zone would be 123 (136.4 x 90%). Did I miss something?

I think you need to add the resting heartrate back into the equation. That is, 123 + 50 = 173. Looks like that works with the rest of the math too.

Oh, sorry Dennis, I guess I didn't make it clear enough that "into" WHR meant into the WHR starting at the RHR. "slow engineer" got that correctly. E.g. a 60% training HR would be RHR+.60*WHR.

Gene

Gene,
thanks for the formulas. I feel like I'm in Algebra all over again. After a little math I was able to figure out my HR range for each category. One question, is it best to do the weekly training runs in the aerobic (70-80%) range and the long weekend runs in the recovery zone (60-70%)? One of these days I will have time to attend Eric's heartrate seminar and get answers to all my questions. Thanks.
Melissa

Melissa -

Well, just remember that this is just one of a number of "formulas" that have been proposed to estimate MHR and where training zones should be. I took a number of formula/method/procedures and looked at what each told me I should be doing and tried 'em out to see what seemed to fit me best.

Of course, as AC Eric Lewis and Coach JR will tell you, one really needs to be tested to find out where your own personal training points are. You can see that in AC Tony's posts. To start out, I computed where a number of different formulas said my "aerobic zone" should be and sorta averaged them to get something in the middle. Seemed to work ok. Then I gravitated to the one I mentioned in the earlier post because it seemed to fit me.

But I know Eric and JR are right. I need to get myself tested.

Gene